Berzeck

About switching to Neo-Scrypt or similar

29 posts in this topic

Ok,I will explain why RAPS idea is horrible for us long term, and why RAPS is very important to the community because its the perfect example on what and why we should not do what most coins are doing (that will led them to their ultimate demise)

Some intro stuff first.

As some may know BTC uses an algorithm based on sha256 for PoW validation, what this means? I will try too explain this with a shortened workflow:

- People start making transactions

- There are special nodes called 'miners' that group for efficiency reasons a collection of transactions called 'blocks' and try to add them to the block chain (explained below), all these blocks refer to the previous one like a chain hence the term 'block chain'

Block chain is nothing more than a database that every node has which collects all transactions made by everyone  (database can be pruned in newer BTC but thats another topic), so when a person  opens the wallet, it begins to fill the database with all these transactions, and sooner or later most nodes have an identical copy of this database in their local PC's. Miners are the 'authorized' nodes that have permission to add records to these databases.

- When a miner sends a request for a block to be introduced to every node's database, the nodes connected to the network validate that the miner is not cheating (creating false transactions or changing the amounts for example), if they are able verify they are not cheating then they append the records (ie new transactions) to their own databases and forward the request to other nodes.

- To avoid spamming the network with false requests, miner must prove that it has solved a difficult puzzle just to have the right to make a request, so the miner must use a lot of resources in computational power, that's why the scheme is called Proof of Work or PoW. The idea here is that solving the puzzle is very very hard so it takes a lot of time and resources to do it, but verifying that the puzzle is correct is a very very fast process and requires minimum computational power.

- Now, when a miner's block is accepted in the database then it is rewarded with new coins generated so there is a monetary incentive to 'mine'.

Ok, sounds good so what is the problem?

At the beginning every person was able to mine using the CPU, but as the demand of BTC started to grow and miners were jumping in mass, the puzzles automatically became more difficult, so some one had the idea to develop the algorithm over the video card which is more suitable to do this kind of computation. Soon enough some companies started to produce specialized hardware or crypto ASICS to solve these puzzles faster. The problem is that a very low percent of the total network is able to purchase this kind of hardware so what it should have been a completely decentralized and trustless system became an oligopoly of wealthy people who were able to win the contest for puzzle solving (collecting the incentive) because they had more money to invest in specialized hardware

(The story does not end here but it is enough for the purposes of this post)

 

Say hello to SCRYPT (The algorithm that WDC uses):

Scrypt is an adapted algorithm whose goal was making the  puzzle  hard enough that it would be more expensive for companies to create specialized hardware, therefore returning the mining power to the masses, as history has shown this wasn't the case because once Litecoin became popular companies started to produce ASICs for SCRYPT anyway.

Then Feather Coin  (and many others with alternative algorithms)  had the idea to make an algorithm even harder  so in theory return mining power to the masses again (not learning from history), this algorithm is called NEO-SCRYPT, the problem is that if for some miracle Feather coin starts to have minimum success then a company will make another ASIC, there is absolutely nothing that can be done in this respect, if there is demand then some one will do it, that's it.

But the worst problem is more subtle: What does making the algorithm more difficult to solve really imply? It implies that you are artificially making it more INEFFICIENT because it needs more global resources to solve it, which in technology is the worst thing you can do; the trend for all technology is exactly in the opposite direction!!!

Switching or developing to another scheme like this one only gives a temporary boost because 'normal' people are able to mine again, but when the coin start to grow in popularity then an ASIC will be done and the price will tank again,whats more we would be stuck with an algorithm that is explicitly designed to be more difficult to SCALE!!! directly sabotagging the long term prospects of our coin!

There are other schemes that were implemented like PoS (Proof of Stake) and others more promising being investigated which in the future I may craft another post about them, but the important thing is that  absolutely NONE of the currently implemented algorithms  solve the real problems that crypto has!!!, they just distort the short term demand of the coin (specially PoS based ones). So switching to another scheme involves months of preparation and testing, all this work would not solve absolutely nothing long term,I repeat ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!

So why there are a lot of people like RAPS pushing to change? Some of them because they do not know internals or technical stuff, they just see what happens to the price in coinmarketcap.com, a lot of them because they want to be fast millionaires buying and selling (these ones are called traders and the immense majority just loses money) and they do not care what happens after. If we switch scheme  the price will probably rise short term, so RAPS and others with the same way of thinking will cash out and move to another coin (something that he specifically said he has done with Feather coin switching to Ethereum after the price climbed)

To finish:

We know that our current scheme has a lot of problems as every other scheme out there and we know we will probably switch in the future AFTER some one finds an algorithm that actually solves the important problems, otherwise it will just be months of wasted resources for something that we know we will need to SWITCH AGAIN!

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3 hours ago, Berzeck said:

Ok,I will explain why RAPS idea is horrible for us long term, and why RAPS is very important to the community because its the perfect example on what and why we should not do what most coins are doing (that will led them to their ultimate demise)

Some intro stuff first.

As some may know BTC uses an algorithm based on sha256 for PoW validation, what this means? I will try too explain this with a shortened workflow:

- People start making transactions

- There are special nodes called 'miners' that group for efficiency reasons a collection of transactions called 'blocks' and try to add them to the block chain (explained below), all these blocks refer to the previous one like a chain hence the term 'block chain'

Block chain is nothing more than a database that every node has which collects all transactions made by everyone  (database can be pruned in newer BTC but thats another topic), so when a person  opens the wallet, it begins to fill the database with all these transactions, and sooner or later most nodes have an identical copy of this database in their local PC's. Miners are the 'authorized' nodes that have permission to add records to these databases.

- When a miner sends a request for a block to be introduced to every node's database, the nodes connected to the network validate that the miner is not cheating (creating false transactions or changing the amounts for example), if they are able verify they are not cheating then they append the records (ie new transactions) to their own databases and forward the request to other nodes.

- To avoid spamming the network with false requests, miner must prove that it has solved a difficult puzzle just to have the right to make a request, so the miner must use a lot of resources in computational power, that's why the scheme is called Proof of Work or PoW. The idea here is that solving the puzzle is very very hard so it takes a lot of time and resources to do it, but verifying that the puzzle is correct is a very very fast process and requires minimum computational power.

- Now, when a miner's block is accepted in the database then it is rewarded with new coins generated so there is a monetary incentive to 'mine'.

Ok, sounds good so what is the problem?

At the beginning every person was able to mine using the CPU, but as the demand of BTC started to grow and miners were jumping in mass, the puzzles automatically became more difficult, so some one had the idea to develop the algorithm over the video card which is more suitable to do this kind of computation. Soon enough some companies started to produce specialized hardware or crypto ASICS to solve these puzzles faster. The problem is that a very low percent of the total network is able to purchase this kind of hardware so what it should have been a completely decentralized and trustless system became an oligopoly of wealthy people who were able to win the contest for puzzle solving (collecting the incentive) because they had more money to invest in specialized hardware

(The story does not end here but it is enough for the purposes of this post)

 

Say hello to SCRYPT (The algorithm that WDC uses):

Scrypt is an adapted algorithm whose goal was making the  puzzle  hard enough that it would be more expensive for companies to create specialized hardware, therefore returning the mining power to the masses, as history has shown this wasn't the case because once Litecoin became popular companies started to produce ASICs for SCRYPT anyway.

Then Feather Coin  (and many others with alternative algorithms)  had the idea to make an algorithm even harder  so in theory return mining power to the masses again (not learning from history), this algorithm is called NEO-SCRYPT, the problem is that if for some miracle Feather coin starts to have minimum success then a company will make another ASIC, there is absolutely nothing that can be done in this respect, if there is demand then some one will do it, that's it.

But the worst problem is more subtle: What does making the algorithm more difficult to solve really imply? It implies that you are artificially making it more INEFFICIENT because it needs more global resources to solve it, which in technology is the worst thing you can do; the trend for all technology is exactly in the opposite direction!!!

Switching or developing to another scheme like this one only gives a temporary boost because 'normal' people are able to mine again, but when the coin start to grow in popularity then an ASIC will be done and the price will tank again,whats more we would be stuck with an algorithm that is explicitly designed to be more difficult to SCALE!!! directly sabotagging the long term prospects of our coin!

There are other schemes that were implemented like PoS (Proof of Stake) and others more promising being investigated which in the future I may craft another post about them, but the important thing is that  absolutely NONE of the currently implemented algorithms  solve the real problems that crypto has!!!, they just distort the short term demand of the coin (specially PoS based ones). So switching to another scheme involves months of preparation and testing, all this work would not solve absolutely nothing long term,I repeat ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!

So why there are a lot of people like RAPS pushing to change? Some of them because they do not know internals or technical stuff, they just see what happens to the price in coinmarketcap.com, a lot of them because they want to be fast millionaires buying and selling (these ones are called traders and the immense majority just loses money) and they do not care what happens after. If we switch scheme  the price will probably rise short term, so RAPS and others with the same way of thinking will cash out and move to another coin (something that he specifically said he has done with Feather coin switching to Ethereum after the price climbed)

To finish:

We know that our current scheme has a lot of problems as every other scheme out there and we know we will probably switch in the future AFTER some one finds an algorithm that actually solves the important problems, otherwise it will just be months of wasted resources for something that we know we will need to SWITCH AGAIN!

 

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10 minutes ago, RAPS said:

So many things wrong here that I had to quote it !!!

One thing wrong here but I had to quote it!

This is a simplification so non developers can understand the argument

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Everybody can read !!! I just wanted to preserve what you said today 08-05-16 it in case you delete or change things later !!! But then again, the people in charge made a whole forum disappear before when things get tough !!! Anybody can see the logical fallacies in your pamphlet ???

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Come on! shoot! People are waiting.

I will answer in the night

EDIT: I give you my word in front of everybody that if I made a mistake I won't correct the original post but to put the correction in another. Just to be sure I ask supporters to take a picture of the post so everybody can be sure of what I am saying

SO SHOOT!

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1 hour ago, RAPS said:

Everybody can read !!! I just wanted to preserve what you said today 08-05-16 it in case you delete or change things later !!! But then again, the people in charge made a whole forum disappear before when things get tough !!! Anybody can see the logical fallacies in your pamphlet ???

LOL+++, things were already tough, as tough as it can be, it couldn't get any tougher!

Do you really think that we wouldn't have loved to have the email contacts of 5k supporters instead of starting from zero? Sadly previous managers had control of forum and we couldn't reach an agreement to transfer it to us. This is something we stated with enough time to warn users and you were warned too, geez man do you have a minimum sense of integrity?

Don't bother to answer this one, it was rehtoric question.

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Whats out things are getting heated up in here.

 

But Berzeck i have to say this was a interesting read probably took a while to write 

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18 hours ago, Luigi said:

Whats out things are getting heated up in here.

 

But Berzeck i have to say this was a interesting read probably took a while to write 

Thanks! The thing is that in previous forum there were a lot of people pushing for this kind of thing, so instead arguing one by one I decided to make (hopefully) a post where people can understand on why doing thats is an horrific idea so they do not get over the cuckoo train!

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8 minutes ago, Braggi said:

Hahahahaha well it is nice that there are discussions starting here but just remember to play nice kids ;)

What do you mean?? I am granting wishes! If some one wants to feel that he is a victim and always pointing that in almost every post then ...well ... I grant the wish and I victimize him! everyone happy!

<--------- That was a joke too :D

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20 hours ago, RAPS said:

Everybody can read !!! I just wanted to preserve what you said today 08-05-16 it in case you delete or change things later !!! But then again, the people in charge made a whole forum disappear before when things get tough !!! Anybody can see the logical fallacies in your pamphlet ???

Instead of making such show take a screenshot put it on imgur with date and put the link here. Not so hard right?

There are 3 probable outcomes:

a] Point out the 'logical fallacies'  (which probably will be nitpicking irrelevant implementation details)

b] He did some research AFTER posting this and prefer to be quiet? Maybe he will just say "Everybody can read!" assuming people will just believe this?

c] Do the 'Craig Wright's exit' (c)  without showing anything? : "I have been victimized and abused too many times so I can't do this, I know I have my logical fallacies but i can't stand pressure anymoreeee, thank you all that believe in my logical fallacies ... I just can't show them to the world... goodbyeee"

I would bet on option b] but I would love option c]

What do you think guys?

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